Ep. 146 - Why Your Demos May be Costing You Deals

Guest: Peter Cohan, Author of “Great Demo!”

Have you ever walked into a software demo, hoping to learn something new, only to sit through a “Harbor Tour” of irrelevant features? 

You’re not alone – and neither are your prospects.

Peter Cohan, author of Great Demo!, joined us on the SaaS Backwards Podcast to unpack the biggest demo mistakes SaaS teams make:

❌ Starting with the how instead of the why
❌ Overloading prospects with unnecessary features
❌ Failing to tailor demos to decision-makers

His solution? Flip your demos upside down. Start with the results your prospects crave, not the laundry list of features.

Peter also shared:
✅ How to identify wasted demos (hint: 30% of them are)
✅ Why "vision generation demos" are the key to nurturing leads
✅ The metrics that show if your demos are working

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Thanks for listening to the SaaS Backwards Podcast, brought to you by Austin Lawrence Group. We help SaaS firms reduce churn, accelerate sales, and generate demand. Learn more at AustinLawrence.com.

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Transcript

Jason Myers: Welcome to SaaS Backwards, a podcast that helps SAS CEOs, CROs, and CMOs to accelerate growth and enhance profitability. Our guest today is Peter Cohan, author of the book, Great Demo, How to Create and Execute Stunning Software Demonstrations. His mission is to improve demos and discovery calls one conversation at a time. So Peter, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So first question, have you ever seen a bad software demo?

Peter Cohan: So I love this question. It's actually something I use when people ask me, what do I do? It's called a provocative question, and immediately you get two sets of answers. The first is, oh yeah, I've probably delivered hundreds myself. which means that this person is now primed as a prospect because they understand the problem and they're interested in learning, what are you going to do to help me improve? On the other hand, if somebody says, no, no, can't say that I've ever seen a bad software demo, I know right away this is not a prospect.

Jason Myers: Right. So what are the most common mistakes that you're seeing out there when companies are delivering software demos?

Peter Cohan: So we are victims of momentum. Well, we tend to do the same things over and over unless we're given a shove in a new direction. And so the traditional software demo, the typical software demo is let me show you how to do X, Y, and Z. And to give you an example, I pulled up something here that I'm just going to read from. So this is a recipe. And I'm going to pretend I'm doing a demo with you by reading portions of this recipe to you. And let me know when you get tired, bored, and wish I would tell you the end result first. So we're going to need some olive oil. I want you to take a large white onion and dice it up. And let me show you how to dice it so you get the right size there. We need a large carrot. Those should be sliced into half-inch thick chunks. We need six ounces or so of bacon, roughly chopped.

Jason Myers: Yeah, you've already lost me because I don't even know what we're cooking.

Peter Cohan: Exactly. And the challenge with most software demos today is they do exactly that. They tell you how something is to be done, but they never tell you what the end result is or why you might even want it. So what I was reading from, Jason, you probably might, when you see this or introduced to it, you'd say, oh, because this is Julia Child's fabulous recipe for beef bourguignon. And in the world of recipes, the first thing that somebody looks at in a recipe is what? They look at the end result. Yeah, they look at the photo of the completed dish and they make an immediate binary decision. Does this look good? And if it does, then they begin to look at what ingredients do I need? How hard is this to prepare? This is something within my cooking wheelhouse and so forth. So traditional or typical software demos are all about how things work when where they should begin is with what good things they deliver. Does that resonate?

Jason Myers: Absolutely. And even to carry your analogy a little bit further from the content side, it's always so annoying. The recipe pages that you look at where they have these big, long explanations, so much so that they had to create the jump to recipe button on there so that I could just get down to the brass tacks. But I think that's a really good point of like how we were trying to maximize the SEO value at the expense of the customer experience.

Peter Cohan: Yep, exactly correct. Another analogy, imagine you have just crashed off your bicycle, you're bleeding moderately or in pain, you take yourself to the emergency room of a hospital, and if they did what traditional vendors do, the interaction would go like this. Somebody would meet you, and provide a 15-minute corporate overview presentation on the hospital, its history, its foundings, its finances, its specialties. They would then take you on a tour of each of the departments and show you all the equipment. At that point, they probably would have run out of time and never actually gotten to see you, to bandage you up or fix broken bones or whatever. So the moral that I teach is to do the last thing first. In other words, if you took a typical or traditional software demo and flipped it upside down, in other words, SaaS backwards, you're starting with the last thing you might traditionally show, which is the reports, the deliverables, the most important dashboards. That's the way to begin the demo portion of a successful great demo.

Jason Myers: So in your book, you emphasize tailoring demos to the audience. Tell me a little bit more about what that looks like or how does that work?

Peter Cohan: So, well, let's start with why, and the why is as an example, let's take a CRM system. At a quick glance, one could easily identify about 13 different players or job titles that might be interested in using a CRM system from a CRO to sales leaders, to sales people, to marketing leaders, to marketing people, to enablement, and on and on. There's about 13 different players. So if you try to put together a demo that embraces all of those job titles, you're going to get a bowl of spaghetti. It's going to be just this big muddled lump of strands and threads. It's a mess. So instead, you pull out individual strands of the spaghetti, if you will, and you'd address each one individually. So the CRO has a set of needs and requirements and objectives that your CRM system needs to address and provide the kinds of reporting and so forth that that person is looking for. So the demo for a CRO is going to largely consist of reports, perhaps alerts, and dashboards that enable him or her to manage their business, track progress, look for opportunities, look for exceptions. The account manager, on the other hand, is interested in his or her own activities and processes. What are my tasks for today? Where am I with my forecast? And so forth. A very different set of wants and needs. So personalizing the demo all the way down to the level of individual job titles is what we teach. We use a structured approach to do that. What is the job title? What is their top level challenge? What problems are they facing? What specific capabilities are they looking for? What value do they hope to gain? And when do they need it? What's the driving force for that date? Those are the key elements that we use to drive discovery for that individual job title so that the demo then is absolutely precise and accurate.

Jason Myers: So they've probably already done that work on the marketing side of identifying the different personas, right? That's a pretty standard thing. So what you're saying is that we should also then prepare what the demo looks like for each one of those different types of personas.

Peter Cohan: Exactly. And I recommend using the phrase job title because persona is often very squishy and imprecise. I've worked with organizations that have a sales persona defined. That could be seven different roles when you actually net it out, ranging again from a CRO to head of sales to an account manager to an account executive, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, that's, that is the idea. You're slicing and dicing down to individuals and their individual needs aligned behind a job title description.

Jason Myers: Can you briefly explain in the book, you have this great demo methodology. How does that differ from like traditional demo approaches?

Peter Cohan: Well, in at least three ways. Traditional demo approaches tend to be, as I said, momentum-based. Here's the demo, the newly onboarded person is told. Learn it, and we'll test you by having you basically regurgitate it. We want you to be able to discuss intelligently all of what we feel are the important features. So what you end up with is what I call a stunningly awful harbor tour. You put the customer or the prospect on the boat, they can't get off, and you drive them around the harbor for an hour or two or three hours, continually asking them, so have you seen anything you like so far? That's a harbor tour demo and those are terrible. So the traditional approach to onboarding is learn the harbor tour and prove it by regurgitating it to us and we'll grade you. So now you've enabled sales, pre-sales marketing staff to go out and basically do harbor tours over and over. So that's the first problem is actually where the onboarding begins. The second problem traditionally is a desire to pack as much into the available time as possible. To a certain degree, this comes from marketing, but it also comes from overzealous salespeople who feel that more features means more value, when in fact the opposite may be true. A person only needs to see the few key capabilities they need to solve their business problems. Everything else that they see ends up in the category of buying it back. Are you familiar with that term? now i'm not buying it back have you ever been in a situation where somebody was trying to sell you something and they described a few capabilities you went oh that sounds really good and then they kept talking about what's got this and it has that it has this other thing this other thing and the more things that they said it has What did you think about with respect to the price?

Jason Myers: Oh, right, that they're trying to justify the high price of whatever it is by throwing all these extra features at it. And when I say, well, I don't need all those things, that it should be a lower price.

Peter Cohan: That is exactly it. That is buying it back. And that's one of the commonest failures of traditional or typical demos. So by trying to pile out as many features and functions into the demos as one can as the vendor, what you're actually doing is you're making your product look too complicated, too complex, and you're at risk of buying it back because the prospect says, you know, you showed me all these things I'm never going to use. So either take them out of the software or reduce the price because I'm paying for the value that I'm going to receive. The methodology itself is a collection of skills as opposed to individual skills that are wielded as the whim strikes. So, for example, people talk about establishing rapport. Well, that's a skill and there's a few ways you can go about doing it or several ways you can go about doing it. Methodology is an integrated set of skills telling you when they should be used, why they should be used, what they are and how to execute them in a, if you will, a unified sense. So to give you an example of great demo methodology, we teach people to start a technical proof demo, that's after you've done discovery, with a crisp review of the prospect's discovery information of their situation. So we actually start with, it's all about the prospects. And you start by saying, if I recall correctly, when we met last week, you told me this, this, this, this, and this. Before we go on, is that all correct? And has anything changed? And the answers are, nope, it's all correct and nothing has changed. Then you go to the next element of the demo, which is a set of skills regarding presenting the key deliverables that this particular prospect job title needs to see. When you go from there, once you've done that and satisfy them to how deep would you like to go? And a great analogy here, well, Jason, let me ask you, when you're scanning the news or whatever your favorite news website is, well, You remember newspapers? Yes, I do. So newspapers have been presenting information for several hundreds of years. They learned some intriguing things about how to do it. So if you remember, and the same thing is true for news articles on the web now, but if you remember picking up a newspaper in the morning, how did you decide, what did you scan to decide what you wanted to read first, which article?

Jason Myers: Well, now you're talking my language, because we're talking all about the headlines.

Peter Cohan: There you go. So you'd read the headlines, and in some cases, that's all you read. You never read anything else in the article. But when you did find an article that you liked, how far did you read?

Jason Myers: Probably the whole thing, or at least half or three quarters.

Peter Cohan: Yeah, and how did you decide you'd had enough?

Jason Myers: When it starts to bore me.

Peter Cohan: Yeah, so newspapers apply a fascinating construct called inverted pyramid, upside down triangle, where you put the most important stuff at the very top, and as you go deeper and deeper into the article, you're getting to smaller and smaller levels of detail. And it invites the reader to read as far as they have interest and then drop out on their own and then scan to the next article. So we teach people to apply that exact same process conversationally when presenting a demo. So they ask, can you set up an alert? And your response should be something like, yes, absolutely. Would you like to see that? Not let me show you, but would you like to see that? So there's two possible responses. A person says, no, I'm good. That's all I needed to know. You're done. You don't have to go any deeper. On the other hand, the person might say, yeah, actually, I'd like to understand what kind of alerts they are and how hard is it to set them up. Then you go that far and you test again. So that's called inverted pyramid. So going back to your question about methodology, what we just discussed were three different major components of a successful great demo. They're linked together and use different sets of skills, multiple skills to actually execute them. So methodology is the integration of those skills, why you want to do it, when to do it, what they are and how to do it.

Jason Myers: And then talk to me about how you recommend Discovery works. So obviously prior to the demo, but can it be in the same meeting? Does it need to be a separate meeting?

Peter Cohan: How does that work? So it can be in the same meeting. I would offer that the more complex the offering and the more complex your prospect situation, the more likely you will probably need to have separate meetings for this. But let's take two starting points. You've got a prospect who's actually interested in learning about your offering and is willing to go through a discovery conversation. So in that case, you begin and go through some of their demographics, tell me about your situation, how many people, where are they, what are their skill sets like, etc. Tell me a little bit about the environment so I have an understanding of that. Now let's talk about your major pain. In other words, what are the issues? What's going well? What needs to change? What's the impact of that? What's the value associated with making the change? And then there are a number of other areas you go through. Ask about cultural elements. For example, where does this prospect perceive themselves on the technology adoption curve? That could tell you worlds about whether or not this is a sales opportunity that is likely to move forward or go to the land of no decision outcomes. So going back, that's the example where the prospect is willing to have a discovery conversation. They get it, they understand the need for that. The second case is where the prospect has effectively hit that book a demo or see a demo button on somebody's website, and they just want to get a sense of what is possible. So in those situations, we teach something called a vision generation demo, which is designed to solve two challenges. Number one, it's designed to give the prospect that appetizer, not the full seven course meal, but just enough of the product to understand what's possible and the satisfied or desire to see that. And then number two, if the prospect is willing and interested to move them into that discovery conversation. So to answer the question, could it be done in one meeting or several? It depends on that situation, but we teach methods of handling either of those. Does that help?

Jason Myers: Yeah, absolutely. It really depends on how complex the offering is, different types of features, and I guess who you're talking to as well, right? Definitely, definitely.

Peter Cohan: And where they are on their buying journey. This is something that I think vendors forget is that there are at least two types of buyers. There are those who are in an active buying process. They actually are interested in bringing the product aboard or solution aboard and implementing it into production use because they've got problems they need to solve, objectives they need to achieve, and time frames they need to meet. The second are people who are just browsing. They're interested, but they're not yet in an active buying process. I'll share a story that generated an article I drafted a couple of years ago that should have been titled the horrors of lead churn. So I'm on the board of a software company and on their behalf, I reached out to a vendor because I was interested in the technology and I thought this might be something interesting to explore. So I hit the book a demo button and within an hour an SDR reached out to me and executed Bant. And he asked me, is this an active project? And I said, not yet. Not really. And he said, do you have a budget allocated? And I say, no. He said, you have a set of needs. I say, well, we're really just trying to characterize our situation. He says, do you have a defined timeline? I said, well, no, not yet. And guess what? What's that? I never saw the demo. Because I answered honestly, I was disqualified and never saw a demo. Here's the real question. So remember, I'd hit the book a demo button. I just wanted to get a sense of what's possible. I wanted to see a vision generation demo. I just wanted enough to say, oh, is this interesting or not? But as a result of never seeing a demo at all, I was a lead that churned. In other words, I would never buy from those guys again because they just blew me off the first time. A board of directors member blown off. So I was a lead that churned even before I went into the funnel, if you will. And that's why it's so important to be able to distinguish, is this person as a prospect in an active buying process, or are they just browsing? Because if they're just browsing, don't blow them off. You want to nurture them. You want to give them a reason to come back to you preferentially. And that again is one of the advantages of giving that lead a vision generation demo, because you're actually satisfying their interest. If you have time to do a little bit of discovery, you're actually beginning to build that relationship as opposed to causing that lead to churn.

Jason Myers: I want to ask you about expertise level on demos. At what level do I need to have somebody deliver the demos? Do I need a demo person that always does the demo with somebody with a lot of expertise? Should it be somebody in customer service? Should it be a sales rep? What does that look like specifically?

Peter Cohan: So the answer's going to be a little bit surprising. If you apply the inverted pyramid concept, where the most important stuff is at the top and then you go into deeper and deeper layers, if you will, or detail, as you go deeper and deeper, to delivering demos, then it turns out that anybody should be able to deliver a vision generation demo who works for the company. They should understand and be able to articulate those elements that I described of who's the job title, what's their top level challenge, what are typical pains they might suffer from, what are the key capabilities they might be looking for, what kinds of rewards they're looking for, and then paired up with one or two or three key screens from the software, which don't even have to be live. They could be full screenshots. So in that case, salespeople, marketing staff, customers, success staff can all deliver a credible, high-level vision generation demo. And that's one of the delights of this methodology. So as your prospect has more and more questions and wants to go deeper and deeper, you are able then to transition from somebody who has a, let's say, a thinner understanding of the technology and the capabilities to somebody that has a deeper understanding. So for example, transitioning from somebody who's pure sales to somebody who is pure pre-sales. What the other major advantage though is this by enabling salespeople and SDRs and BDRs and marketing customer success to be able to give initial demos, you're freeing up those technical resources for the deeper demos, the technical proof demos. So inverted pyramid as practiced or as applied from great demo methodology, enables that transition to take place, really, I would say, enable you to optimize your customer facing forces.

Jason Myers: And I'm assuming that you really need to do some level of discovery upfront so that you can ensure what you're going to be talking about. In other words, you need to know if it's a vision demo, like if there's somebody that's kicking the tires and you want to nurture them versus a CEO, for example, that really wants to know certain features and whether it'll handle it or not, because you want to risk the frustration of not being able to answer a CEO's question if they're ready to buy on the phone.

Peter Cohan: So absolutely. And that's part of the defining purposes of a vision generation demo is to enable that understanding to take place mutually between the vendor and the prospect. I will comment though, one of the requirements of any vendor player is to be able to capture, park, and get back to prospects on any questions that they themselves couldn't answer. That's part and parcel what a vendor sales team, customer success team should be looking at is, all right, you've asked a question about how big can the database be? Well, I don't know that answer, but I'll find out and get back to you on it.

Jason Myers: What advice do you have for crafting a compelling narrative and storytelling wrapped into the demo process that's going to resonate with the prospect?

Peter Cohan: So storytelling is a very intriguing topic that is often misunderstood and misused. The classic approach, and I'm going to say the erroneous approach to storytelling and demos, is to wrap a story around your demo. And often these take the example of a day in the life. Let me show you how to go from building a form to this, to this, to this, to this. And it's not a day in the life, it's like a month and a year. It's way too much. If you really want to map to a real day in the life, contemplate what this particular prospect job title does when they first come to their computer on Monday morning. This is a very insightful way to think about it. On Monday morning, people don't build a new form from scratch. What does any sales leader do on Monday morning? Delete emails. Delete. Okay. And after they deleted the pile of egos, what do they do? I read the comics, but then I dive in. So what do they do? What do they scan?

Jason Myers: They probably go through the pipeline, see where they need to touch personally, what outreach needs to be done, where can they move deals forward.

Peter Cohan: Yeah, so I've been that person actually several times, and on Monday morning, the three things that I would typically look at were, number one, this quarter's forecast, and the same attributes you just talked about, where are we, what do we need to do to get there, where the solid deals, where the deals or opportunities that I may need to help with, or I may need a coach, or need to get some more information on, that would be the first screen I'd be looking at. So forecast and its roll up, if you will. The second would be the pipeline going out, the next two, three, four quarters. And the third would be to dig in deeper on the team itself, Where do people need help? Where are they struggling? Where are the high performers? How do I remove obstacles from their way and so forth? Those represent typically two or three visuals, two or three reports or dashboards. That's the story that I would want to tell in a demo is a dear prospect. Imagine it's Monday morning, you just sat down, What do you want out of the software? And they say, I need to see the forecast, the pipeline, and I need to be able to coach my team. Perfect. There's the story. We're going to turn you into the hero by providing you with the capabilities to see that the moment you've sat down. So that's a different take on storytelling. It's aligning to your prospect's real life day in a life, as opposed to wrap a story around your demo. But there's another angle of storytelling, which I would love to go into if you're interested. Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give you part of the punchline and you finish it. Slow and steady wins the race. Wins the race. Okay. What is that story called and who first collected it?

Jason Myers: I don't know. The tortoise and the hare.

Peter Cohan: It's the tortoise and the hare. Yeah. And it's Aesop, one of Aesop's fables. And Aesop collected these stories. Are you ready for this? Somewhere around 2,600 years ago, 400 BC-ish. 2,600 years ago, that story was collected and it's in nearly every culture around the world. Although, intriguingly, the animals change according to local conditions. Like, if I recall correctly, in Germany there's not a lot of tortoises, and so that animal is actually the hedgehog. But here's the important thing. What's the moral of the story? What's the takeaway?

Jason Myers: is that if we're too quick on things we're going to miss opportunities.

Peter Cohan: We've got to be patient. Now if you tell your teenage son or daughter just be patient and work hard and you will do well, what will be their response? Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah, right, dad. Sure. So the intriguing thing about true storytelling is if you take a boring meme, a boring idea like that, if you just work hard and persevere, my son or daughter, you'll do well. You wrap that boring meme in a story that has certain characterized storytelling elements like it's relevant, it's real. It has an element of surprise. That story can live, well, in this case, 2600 years. So Another way to use storytelling in demos is to use it to encapsulate a feature or an advantage statements. And for example, a customer story. So somebody's, let's go back to the CRM system, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're talking to somebody, you're talking to a CRO and the CRO is concerned about churn rate. You say, oh, you know what? That reminds me of a story from one of our existing customers. They told us they were really concerned about churn, and they were looking for capabilities to alert the customer success team well ahead of when somebody might churn. Well, we provided those capabilities, and as a result, this customer success team were surprised when they found that one of their major customers was likely about to churn, but they were able to avoid it because of the alerting system. And as a result, they were able to renew that customer, which accounted for several millions of dollars on an annual basis. Okay, so that is a very poorly told mini story that's designed to encapsulate the customer about to churn alerting capability. So that's a boring feature on its own. But if you encapsulate it in a story that is real, is relevant, has an element of surprise and a couple of other parameters, it enables it to be remembered much better by that prospect. And even better, it can be retold internally in that prospect over and over and over with incredible high fidelity, incredible accuracy. That's one of the wonderful things about storytelling.

Jason Myers: Yeah, nice. What should we be tracking to evaluate the effectiveness of demos?

Peter Cohan: So interestingly, I just published an article on pre-sales metrics, which is on our website at greatdemo.com on the e-book section. But there are two metrics in particular that I invite people to pay careful attention to. The easier one to track is percent of wasted demos. An organization called ConsenSys does an annual survey of the pre-sale space, and they have found, and it's been year over year, that their customers have completed the survey, and it's something like 11 or 1200 customers, report 30% of all the demos that they deliver are waste, meaning their harbor tours, their overview demos, where the prospect had no intention of moving on, 30%. So 30% of all their demos are wasted. If you can cut that by 10% or 20%, wow, think about what you could do with that time of the staff that are involved. So tracking wasted demos, and you can basically track it in terms of did it convert or not? Because if it didn't, it was a waste, let's face it. The second metric are no decision outcome. I saw a post on LinkedIn today where somebody reported that 61% of all the forecasted opportunities end up as no decision outcomes. Gartner would say that's high. Gartner in their last few studies said that it's about 45%, but however you slice it, that's nearly half of all the sales opportunities you work on. And I love to rhetorically ask, as a sales team, would you like some of that time back in your lives? So first is to track no decision rates and to find what is a no decision. Is it it rolls over to the fore on the forecast one quarter or two quarters or three quarters, but track them. But the second is to be proactive about it. And by looking at three parameters, you can uncover rather readily in discovery you can rather dramatically reduce no decision rates. So by understanding the difference between pain and a critical business issue, so in other words, is this the hell that somebody's willing to live with forever, or is it really impacting their ability to achieve their annual or quarterly objectives? That's number one. Number two, does the prospect see and agree on the value equation and can they articulate it internally to sell internally successfully? In other words, is there enough value that we can gain in the right timeframe? That's often a huge failure in discovery, not uncovering tangible value. And number three is timing. Is there a date by when you, dear prospect, need to have a solution in place? And is there a driving force for that? So those three parameters can help an organization avoid, and while they're tracking, avoid a no-decision outcome. So those would be two metrics I'd suggest that people manage and track.

Jason Myers: Very good. And can you also share an example of how a well-executed demo has shortened a sales cycle or turned around a challenging sales situation?

Peter Cohan: Yeah, this is a few years ago. I was doing a workshop, a great demo workshop. So a face-to-face training session that spanned about a day and three quarters for a vendor team down in San Diego. And we'd finished the first day and people went home or they had dinner or whatever. Well, one of the team members was a woman who had been asked to quote-unquote jump on a call by a salesperson, she's a pre-salesperson, jump on a call by her sales counterpart to give a demo to a customer in Singapore. So it was happening that night. She came into the workshop the next morning and announced I just rescued a $250,000 deal from ruined. And in fact, it's now moving forward in our favor as the result of applying what she learned in day one of the workshop. So I consider that one of my happy success stories. So there you go. Those are the kinds of things that get me up in the morning and make my day. It's when I get an email from somebody that says, hey, I just read your book and I applied it and we just secured a $50,000 order we never thought we're going to get and so forth. That's what gets me going.

Jason Myers: Yeah, absolutely. So that sounds like a good place to land the podcast. So if people want to get a hold of you, especially if they want to improve their demo process, how would you recommend they do that?

Peter Cohan: Probably the easiest thing is to go to greatdemo.com and take a look at some of our blog posts or articles and offerings. And then if you want to reach out and connect to have a conversation, I can be reached directly at pcohan at greatdemo.com, or if you want to connect with some of the more selling members of the team, you can use info at greatdemo.com, but I'm happy to have the conversation.

Jason Myers: And the full name of that book is Great Demo, How to Create and Execute Stunning Software Demonstrations. I like that. So you can find that on Amazon. If you have Kindle Unlimited, it's free. So check it out.

Peter Cohan: And there's a companion book that I've drafted and published two years ago that I should have written first, which is strangely enough called Doing Discovery. So I'd recommend buying them as a pair because you can actually read back and forth between them. That's the best way to consume them.

Jason Myers: Oh, that's great. And our agency is called Austin Lawrence Group. We sponsor the SaaS Backwards podcast, and you can find us at AustinLawrence.com. That's spelled like the two cities, Austin, Texas, and Lawrence, Kansas. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet, please do so wherever podcasts are distributed. Peter, thanks for joining us today. It was a really great discussion.

Peter Cohan: Truly my pleasure.